Part One of the transcript of an item on NPR’s Sunday Edition on November 22: “Can We Construct a Counter-Narrative to ISIS’s End Goal? Part Two will follow tomorrow.
RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Since 9/11, we’ve heard how moderate Muslims need to speak out against extremism. Moderate Muslims need to create a counter-narrative to the one peddled first by al-Qaida and now by ISIS. Our next guest has spent a lot of time talking with former ISIS fighters. And he says moderation is not the answer. Scott Atran is an anthropologist. And this past week, he co-authored an article for The New York Review of Books, entitled “Paris: The War ISIS Wants.” He said in order to understand ISIS, you have to look at how they define their mission. Their goal, he says, as stated in their manifesto, is to inhabit places in chaos and then breed that chaos everywhere else.
SCOTT ATRAN: So they go into places like Africa or Central Asia, which is inherently chaotic, and they try to establish their brand of Islam there and their rule. And they come to Europe and, if possible, the United States, to create chaos. And the purpose of creating chaos is to destroy what they call the gray zone. The gray zone is the area where most of us live. It’s the area between the true believer and the non-believer – and to force a polarization so that all Muslims will go with the true believers and the Islamic State and they will fight a war to the end with the non-believers. And they argue that the way to do this is to appeal to the inherent rebelliousness of youth and to hit targets like tourist places, stadiums, concert halls, that cannot be possibly defended worldwide, to force the host populations to detest Muslims. And Muslims, in reaction, will join the Islamic State.
MARTIN: ISIS and its central tenet of creating a caliphate, which is a powerful motivation – they actually want to inhabit a state. It is meaningful to people to be part of a movement like that that feels significant. How do you create a counter-narrative to create alternative meaning for people who feel disaffected by mainstream Western society?
ATRAN: Let’s back up just a little bit. They don’t just want to create a state. They want to create a world system and New World Order. Now, the caliphate is an exciting idea. As one imam in Barcelona told us, we reject the violence of ISIS, but we didn’t even exist in Europe. The people of Europe were blind to us. They put us on the map. Now, I would never support the kind of violence. But the caliphate – well, now it’s here. And I hope it’s here to stay. Not in their version, maybe as a European Union of Muslim peoples. Now, how do we combat that? Well, so far, the counter-radicalization or counter-narratives proposed in our societies have been pathetic. First, they preach things like moderation. I often tell them, don’t any of you have teenage children? When did moderation do anything? And they’re all too often repetitive, mass messaging and lecturing at young people, whereas the Islamic State takes a very intimate and personal approach. They look at each individual and sometimes spend hundreds, even thousands of hours drawing out their personal grievances and frustrated aspirations and trying to link it to a larger story of how the world should be and what they can do to contribute to it.